Monday, June 04, 2007

Just say no to torture porn

Though I'd be much happier if Joss Whedon got back to writing and directing movies, he can be just as insightful when he simply writes a diatribe.

I should be in a good mood this morning. I saw one pretty good movie ("Gracie") and one truly great one ("Knocked Up," reviewed in the previous post) last weekend, but all that good karma was just about wiped out when I woke up to find out that "Hostel 2" opens this weekend, and the even more disgraceful "Captivity" comes only two weeks later.

Now, I haven't seen the original "Hostel" because, well, it's just really not my thing. I enjoy a good horror movie, but the recent spate seems to be all about mutilation and nothing about suspense.

In the sequel, the apparently clever part is that it's young women we get to watch getting tortured rather than young men. In this case it's Laura German, Bijou Phillips and Heather Matarazzo (and I thought I would see anything with her in it, but certainly not now.) Elisha Cuthbert gets the honor of being abused on the big screen in "Captivity."

If you enjoy this kind of thing, you won't get any verbal abuse from me. I'm only asking that you stop and think for a minute before spending your money on this rather repulsive fare. I can't really put into words how much this disgusts me, so I'll let Joss Whedon do it for me.

On the great Whedonesque site, he recently unleased a rant titled "Let's Watch a Girl Get Beaten to Death." What set him off was the recent stoning death of 17-year-old Dua Khalil Aswad in Iraq, which was taped by standersby with cellphones and widely distributed on the Internet (please, I beg of you, do not now try and go find video of this.) Anyways, here's an excerpt of Mr. Whedon's insight, followed by a link to where you can read the rest of it. I highly recommend you take the time to do so.

A few of you may know that I took public exception to the billboard campaign for this film, which showed a concise narrative of the kidnapping, torture and murder of a sexy young woman. I wanted to see if the film was perhaps more substantial (especially given the fact that it was directed by “The Killing Fields” Roland Joffe) than the exploitive ad campaign had painted it. The trailer resembles nothing so much as the CNN story on Dua Khalil. Pretty much all you learn is that Elisha Cuthbert is beautiful, then kidnapped, inventively, repeatedly and horrifically tortured, and that the first thing she screams is “I’m sorry”.

Women’s inferiority – in fact, their malevolence -- is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere they’re sporting burkhas. I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards, and not just the ones for horror movies. Women are weak. Women are manipulative. Women are somehow morally unfinished. (Objectification: another tangential rant avoided.) And the logical extension of this line of thinking is that women are, at the very least, expendable.

If we were all told the sky was evil, or at best a little embarrassing, and we ought not look at it, wouldn’t that tradition eventually fall apart?

I have never had any faith in humanity. But I will give us props on this: if we can evolve, invent and theorize our way into the technologically magical, culturally diverse and artistically magnificent race we are and still get people to buy the idiotic idea that half of us are inferior, we’re pretty amazing. Let our next sleight of hand be to make that myth disappear.

The sky isn’t evil. Try looking up.


For as long as I live, I will never be able to put it any better than that. To read the rest, click here, and please, please, please don't go see "Hostel 2" this weekend. It should be a fine summer weekend, so surely you can find something else to do. Hell, I might even go see "Knocked Up" again.

70 comments:

Beth said...

Thank you for this post. I've been having a similar conversation with a friend recently.

It's bad enough that these movies are getting greenlit (I'm all for freedom of expression, but really, there's nothing better wending it's way through the studio system?), but I truly, truly worry about the people who see these films in the name of "entertainment."

Ian said...

I DID see "Hostel" (and since "The Killing Fields" is one of my Top 10 films ever I'll probably see "Hostel 2" too) and while some of it made me feel uncomfortable in that it felt a little too voyeuristic, much of the final third in particular was so ridiculous I found it hard to believe that anybody could take it that seriously. I did think it had some serious points to make about what society has become, and was an extremely well crafted horror film in places that DIDN'T rely on just meaningless torture to tell its story. Certainly light years ahead of the endless slasher/Nightmare/Jason films that were the staple of the genre in the past.

It reminded me of seeing my first "18" film here in the UK: The Exorcist. At the time the media lead me to believe I would be scarred for life with reports of ambulancemen at screenings, people exiting the cinema in droves etc etc. I'm afraid I ended up being extremely disappointed with the final film as a result, laughing out loud at the rather ridiculous pea-green paint from a hose effect that was apparently meant to be 'vomit' and the 360-degree twisting head that apparently could have scarred me for life. The film was just a fairground ride, that's all. Nothing to worry about!

And I certainly think "Hostel" is a FAR better 'film' than say "The Texas Chain Saw Massacre" (the original) or any other number of those slasher pictures or endless, mindless computer games that encourage violence, music that thinks it's clever to promote endless four letter words and violence etc.

Of course it assumes its audience is intelligent but that's a poor assumption in this day and age, as evidenced by the Iranian clip Wheedon talks about. But it's far too late to stop the floodgates now. I'd far sooner park the blame for this sort of mainstream sickness at the likes of Jerry Springer and Eminem.

Reel Fanatic said...

I do think you're right that there are a lot more polluting agents in our society that have as much power and bare more blame than movies ... And since you mention it, I'm probably more than a bit of a hypocrite because I do listen to some fairly hardcore rap music from time to time (though none that depicts the torture of women)

Ben Varkentine said...

I would like that Joss Whedon article a lot more if he hadn't decided to glorify and reward a violent and vicious would-be rapist punk in his own "feminist" series.

And if he'd ever been able to write out a strong woman character without killing them.

In fact, I would like all of Whedon's work a lot more (and I do like it) if that were true.

But that's me.

I also wrote about woman-torture movies here:
http://varkentine.blogspot.com/2007/05/i-never-miss-kidnapped-model-torture.html

Reel Fanatic said...

I was trying to think of a Whedon strong leading lady he hadn't killed off, Ben, but couldn't come up with one ... I suppose you could count Willow, my favorite of all the Buffy characters, even though she wasn't the main gal

Mercurie said...

I have to hand it to Joss Whedon, he sure does write a great rant. I think I could tolerate the whole crop of "torture chic (as the subgenre has come to be called)" movies if they were any good. Unfortunately, it seems to me that so many of them have poorly developed characters, plots with a holes a mile wide, and are made with all the technical skill of a TV commercial. I am not going to condemn the subgenre as a whole, but like the slasher films of the Eighties, it seems to have produced very little in the way of quality.

Reel Fanatic said...

You have more of a stomach for this stuff than me, Mercurie .. I suppose I shouldn't condemn the whole subgenre without watching more of it, but I just can't bring myself to do it

J. Marquis said...

I think we underestimate how this constant exposure to "torture" media warps our outlook (and even more so when it comes to young males). For example, I was pretty shocked the first time Jack Bauer tortured somebody on "24"...but after a few seasons of the show I just assume he'll go that route anytime one of the villains is even slightly reluctant to provide information.

Reel Fanatic said...

You're definitely right there, J Marquis ... That isn't why I stopped watching 24 ... I gave it up before the beginning of the latest season because it all just seemed so repetitive to me

Damian said...

I was also recently engaged in a similar conversation with Neil over at Bleeding Tree on the subject of "torture porn" I suspect the topic will re-surface a lot in the next few days.

JA said...

Not to go all ballistic on ya like FilmIck's been doing to Nikki Finke for saying basically the same thing also without having seen the Hostel films, but honestly one of my biggest pet peeves is somebody telling me not to see a movie when they haven't seen it themselves. If you're going to comment on something, you might want to actually come off as educated on the topic, and not act like the morality-police. There is a place nd a use for what Eli Roth is doing, and if you bothered to watch the films you might see that. Or you might not; a good friend of mine have been having the argument for months about if Roth knows what the hell he's doing or if he just talks a good game after the fact; but at least this friend of mine has bothered to see what he speaks of. Anyway, either way, appreciate what Roth is doing or not in the end, spouting off not knowing what you're talking about and then acting as if you're someone whose opinion we should value on that topic is a bit ridiculous.

Reel Fanatic said...

I knew someone would accuse me of ignorance on this, Ja, and I appreciate you doing so with a civil tongue ... I just can't bring myself to watch such fare, so I concede that you're right that I'm probably not the best person to comment on it ... that said, I stand by my opinion that the current crop of horror movies, many of which I have actually seen, are little more than pale comparisons to their predecessors in this genre

JA said...

I'm glad I wasn't being too much of prick... or you're just being nice, which I appreciate. ;-) I posted what Joss aid over at my blog, too, and I agree with a lot of what Joss has to say; I hate the Saw films and think the arguments of "torture porn" stick to them pretty well. But I'll defend what Roth does and did with Hostel because I really think he's a smart filmmaker who's trying to get at something important. I've found myself having to defend Hostel lately more than makes me comfortable because I don't think the film's entirely successful, but I do think that the base charge of crude exploitation and just being sick for being sick's sake that's levelled against Hostel is unfair. It's got a lot going on behind what's going on. I have really high hopes for the second one because Roth's addressed a lot of the problems I had with the first one in interviews and really sounds on his game. As for what Joss had to say, I agree the ads for Captivity have been extremely over-the-line and have made me not want to watch the film, but I don't feel like I can say anything about the actual film until I do see it, and I probably will (though I'll wait til dvd, I imagine, on that one). But, shameless marketing aside, Captivity is directed by Roland Joffe, not exactly known for being a schlock-master (Super Mario Brothers aside).

Damian said...

In addition to mentioning this topic in my own recent blog, I wrote a response over at Cinematical that addresses this idea of ignorance and Nikki Finke's statement:

Perhaps a more important question than whether or not one can call a film "disgusting" before seeing it is whether or not a person can say ANYTHING about a film prior to seeing it. Is watching trailers, seeing clips from the movie and reading a number of reviews that describe what happens in the film sufficient to decide whether or not the movie is "disgusting" or "dark" or "pleasant" or whatever? Furthermore, how much of a film does one have to see before one can legitimately form an opinion about it? 100%? 50%? Can I turn off/walk out of a film 20 minutes into it and still be able to tell other people about it? Or do I actually have to watch a film more than once to be able to properly appreciate or evaluate it?

What this really boils down to is what degree of knowledge do we demand from ourselves and from others on any given subject? How much information does one need before one can form a definite conclusion about anything? Is personal experience the ONLY way by which a person can can legitimately praise or criticize something? Is 20/20 vision ONLY possible in hindsight? Do I have to personally take cocaine to know it's not good for me and to advise others, with any kind of authority, not to do it? Maybe. Maybe not. These are important questions to ask.


Whenever I discuss a film that I have not seen I always make it a point to mention that I haven't seen it and, therefore, I could be completely wrong (I have certainly been proven wrong before about films), but--and here's something that people tend to forget--I could also be right about it and I'm not sure, woth regard to this particualr film, I wanna take the chance to find out.

I don't particularly like to throw the term "torture porn" around, but I do find it to be a very apt descriptor of a certain kind of film. When and where that term can/should be employed is certainly up for debate. I wouldn't apply it to either Seven or the first Saw movie, but I do think it represents Hostel (and, from what I hear, Roth's other films) very well. Personally speaking, I don't plan to see Hostel II and I give my reasons here.

JA said...

I actually finished watching Hostel just a minute ago for the second time (hadn't seen it since the theater) and I was kind of suprised that it wasn't as bloody as I remembered. Don't get me wrong, it's got a good strong dose of gore in it, but Roth cuts away and implies a lot more violence than I remembered him doing, and I think my memory of the film was skewed by all this hullaballoo about it being "torture porn."

Horror is like comedy, in that some people find some things scary that others don't, just like some people laugh at things that other people don't find the slightest bit funny. A lot of the arguments I've heard levelled at Hostel is that it isn't scary, that all Roth does is show people getting tortured and not build any sort of suspense; I'd heard it so much that watching it again this time I was suprised by just how false I find that argument. There's so little actual torturing going on in the film; it maybe fills 5-10 minutes at the absolute most of screentime, out of what, nearly two hours? There is so much else going on, and I think Roth builds a fantastic atmosphere of dread even when limbs aren't being shorn.

I still have problems with the final ten minutes or so, I don't think Roth quite gets at what he's getting at, that the "hero" has turned into a "monster" and it instead plays as some sort of homophobic retribution that still doesn't sit right with me.

But the film played even better, for me, with a second viewing, and I found it even scarier than I remembered it being. I can't argue with someone not finding it scary, though, because that's a personal reaction.

Damian said...

Horror is like comedy, in that some people find some things scary that others don't, just like some people laugh at things that other people don't find the slightest bit funny.

One of the things I always like to say about comedy is that there is a distinction between being funny and making people laugh. I could find something exceptionally funny, witty or clever and just not laugh. On the other hand I could have the natural, perhaps even reflexive, response of laughing at something that I didn't even think was particularly funny. Likewise with horror/suspense movies, there is a difference between scaring people and being "scary." People can be afraid of something that really isn't that scary and people can not fear something that is really is, or ought to be, legitimately scary. Even among scary movies there are further distinctions. I've always said that fear and disgust are two different sensations. Being put on the edge of one's seat (trying to move closer to the screen in anticipation of what is going to happen) is quite different from being pushed back into it cringing (being repulsed by what you are seeing/about to see on screen).

A lot of the arguments I've heard levelled at Hostel is that it isn't scary, that all Roth does is show people getting tortured and not build any sort of suspense; I'd heard it so much that watching it again this time I was suprised by just how false I find that argument. There's so little actual torturing going on in the film; it maybe fills 5-10 minutes at the absolute most of screentime, out of what, nearly two hours? There is so much else going on, and I think Roth builds a fantastic atmosphere of dread even when limbs aren't being shorn.

I think it would be interesting at some point to conduct a study of what percentage of an average porno movie involves actual simulated sex (penetration, oral or just, in the case of softcore, the simulation of these things) and how much involves simply talking or even just heavy petting, foreplay, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if, typically speaking, the numbers weren't dissimilar. The amount of actual on-screen violence in relation to the "leading-up-to" and aftermath of the violence is certainly criteria worthy of thought, but it is not the only criteria, I think, in determining whether or not a horror film is indeed "torture porn."

In a way, the term "torture porn" is so highly debated because the term pornography itself is so often debated. One man's pornography is another man's art, so how are we supposed to think about these categories? Well, one of conclusions that I eventually came to was that I think pornography has more to do with intent that with content. Why is the filmmaker showing/not showing me this? What is the intended effect of these images, scenes, lines, etc? Is he/she actually trying to use these things to say something significant? Is he/she trying to get me to think about something provocative or profound? If not, then how much am I willing to let slide in the name of entertainment? If it is not, strictly speaking, "art" but merely "trash" (and I'm using that word in the most affectionate sense) then do I feel that the filmmaker is being responsible? In fact, do I think the filmmaker even has a sense of personal responsbility? Does he/she believe that a director could possibly "go too far" in the course of getting what they want on the screen in order to scare/shock/titillate an audience, that the ends don't always justify the means?

See, I don't get this sense from Eli Roth. Neither from his films nor the things I've heard him say in interviews. He's certainly smart and he may be talented (although I think even that's debatable), but I he seems to me to be lacking the kind of "inner moral compass" that other filmmakers who use graphic violence (such as Wes Craven, John Carpenter, Steven Spielberg and Martin Scorsese) have. This is why I find Roth's work at best amoral and at worst immoral, and why I find his attitude towards his work disturbing and dangerous. In Roth's own mind, I think he can do no wrong and, quite frankly, that frightens me a little bit.

Reel Fanatic said...

I'm glad this has provoked such a civil discussion about what constitutes horror, and that noone has yelled at me too much for my inability to bring myself to watch much of it ... I have also seen interviews with Eli Roth in which he comes off as a very intelligent dude, so I would be curious what he could come up with beyond the Hostel series ... I know he's threatening to do an entire movie out of fake trailers like the one he did for "Grindhouse," but that idea sounds more than a little dubious to me

JA said...

Well Roth's admitted a lot lately that he thinks there are problems with his first two films and that he's constantly trying to improve and get it right, so I don't think he thinks his shit doesn't stink just yet. I could definitely see him getting to that point, and after I see Hostel 2 - which he keeps saying, salesman that he is, is his best work where everything's come together the way he wanted it to - I'll decide if I truly think he's maturing as a filmmaker.

Watching Hostel, I never get the sense - like I do with the Saw films, especially 2 and 3 - that the film is subscribing to what the term "torture porn" stand for - that its violence is there merely to provoke shock, with no value beyond that. The actual scenes of torture never strike me as fetishistic in the slightest. In the Saw films, everything is about the kill. Finding a new, "inventive" way to show as much slaughter as possible. The torture scenes in Hostel are, as these things go, practically banal. There's nothing that those of us who've seen our fair share of horror films haven't seen before. There are chainsaws, and scalpels, and guns. There aren't enormous fetished machines with clockwork that slowly twist people's limbs off like in Saw 3. What actual violence do we see in Hostel? We see some fingers cut off. There's a really quick close-up shot of a drill going into skin. A leg cut off with a chainsaw. We see the aftermath of tendons sliced (but not the actual slicing). And there's the eyeball snipping scene, which to me is one of the most horrifically moral scenes in the film, because it's about one of the most primal forces behind what horror is all about - forcing the good guy to do the right thing when the "right thing" is unspeakable.

And so much of Hostel, like Cabin fever, is about morally questionable people - Roth loves making his main characters huge "Ugly American" stereotypes - and forcing these people into situations where they will be faced with a funhouse mirror version of their own selfishness and their own hypocrisies, and see what they make of these monstrous versions of themselves. In Hostel we have half the movie about these prick tourists searching for nothing but wish fulfillment, and in the second half we have them on the other side where, what are basically older versions of our main characters, cast their wish fulfillments onto them. And these are hardly blank, undefined characters that get thrown in a meat grinder like the characters in Saw are. They aren't especially likeable characters that Roth gives us, but they're, pardon the pun, pretty fleshed out as far as these things go.

And nihilism, if it has any place in art, it's place is in horror. Do I think nihilism is one of humanity's positives? Of course not, but it is human, and sometimes the world sucks and people are monsters and doing the right thing will only fuck things up worse, and that's what horror is all about. Does it get any more nihilistic than Fincher's Seven? We want Brad Pitt to shoot Spacey in the head, even when it's exactly what shouldn't be done. I don't want to be coddled by a horror film; I don't want to walk out of one feeling all is right with the world. I want to be deeply unsettled. I want to be told all is not right. Eli Roth didn't pull the idea for Hostel out of his ass; there are really places like this in the world, where you can go, buy a human being, and slaughter them. All is not right in this world; the good guys can be assholes, the bad guys can be family men, repressed closet cases, poor foreign girls, ten year old children.

Reel Fanatic said...

You do make a solid case there, ja ... Horror is indeed supposed to be about the darkest forces surrounding us, and extremely nihilistic ... I can definitely see why you bring up Seven, a film which I do adore ... Perhaps I just give Fincher a pass because he directs with so much style and precision

Ben Varkentine said...

My argument would be, though: With corrupt politicians, Iran going nuclear and everything else happening in the middle east...why do we need *films* to remind us of things like anarchy and terrorism and all the other negative extremes?

Did you ever read Roger Ebert's entries on the film Chaos last year?

I posted links to a couple of them here:

http://varkentine.blogspot.com/2006/09/chaos-is-enemy-of-hope.html

JA said...

Well do we "need" films, period? Do we need to be reminded of love when there's love in the world or puppies when there are puppies in the world?

Listen, I'm not arguing that everybody needs to see Hostel. If it's not your cuppa, I don't hold it against you; I wouldn't take my mother or 18-year old sister even to see it.

But yes, I most certainly do think that there is a place in art for making us think about the bad things in the world. I don't think it's a need everybody has, and I don't think these films are for everbody. That said I also don't think it's a sick need, one born out of perversity, either, if one does get something from a film that deals in these dark matters.

Reel Fanatic said...

Like I said at the outset, Ja, I certainly don't classify all people who want to see this type of movie as perverts ... I can see why people would want to see it, and you have certainly made a strong case as to why ... Interestingly enough, I'm trying to get the owner of our biggest multiplex on the cell now to confirm this, but it seems that they're only showing Hostel 2 exactly twice in the next cycle, at 11:30 p.m. Friday and Saturday nights ... It's not on their Web listing for any other night next week ... That seems more than a bit extreme to me, even with the glut of films we have now in the thick of summer

Damian said...

Well, JA, certainly makes some compelling arguments and, ultimately, we may have to arrive at a place where we just simply agree to disagree. Personally speaking, I do not think that nihilism has its place in art or in life (understand that when I say this I am not suggesting we try to wipe nihilism from the face of the earth; I accept that it's part of our world and always will be, I just don't think it's a very moral, or very healthy, philosophy). I agree that evil is a very real thing worth thinking about and art (including movies) can help us think about them, but I believe it is also possible to make a film--horror or otherwise--that confronts the very real and very dark evil that exists in the world without doing so from a nihilistic perspective.

For example, I don't consider Seven (one of my favorite films incidentally) to be a nihilistic work. Not at all. I think Seven certainly asks some very provocative questions but does not provide any easy answers (it's been said that art questions and propoganda answers; I think there's something to that). By the end of it, though I was certainly disturbed, shocked and saddened by what I saw, I was still pensive, still thoughtful and still hopeful. To me, Seven was a tragedy while Hostel was not (except perhaps a tragedy in filmmaking). garnted, maybe I'm just old-fashioned and not as "hip" as today's youth (who I do believe are becoming increasingly bleak, cynical and nihilistic) but I don't see finding meaning or purpose in pain and suffering as "coddling."

I think that we do need films, we just don't need ALL films.

James said...

I like suspense movies more then horror--especially Hitchcock. He was the master of suspense.

I am exhausted with so many horror movies bombarding us lately. It seems that for every good comedy there are ten horror films.

Reel Fanatic said...

I just can't thank any of you enough who have continued to read the comments on this thread .. and as Damian says, I think correctly, we do need all films, even if there are some that I simply refuse to see

Damian said...

Actually what I said was that although I think we do need films (in general), we don't need ALL films. I really do think that there are some movies the world is just better off without. Having said that, though, the problem arises when we try to figure out, specifically, what those films are because everyone disagrees. Who decides?

So, I guess we'll all just have to live with all of the films have been made so far and will be made in the future, but (like you, RF) there are some of them that I, for my own reasons, just will not see.

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